Chough Interview Transcript

Now, red billed choughs are a kind of crow, but while you might be able to mistake a rook for a jackdaw in the wrong light, you would never mistake a chough, because its wickedly curved, fiery red beak and bright red legs makes it instantly recognisable. Now, sadly, even though there were such iconic birds in Kent that they even feature on Canterbury's coat of arms, loss of their favourite habitats and misplaced persecution, it was believed in mediaeval times they could set fire to things. Hence their Latin name, pyrrhocorax. It means that they have been extinct in England for at least the last 200 years.

But that is now changing, thanks to Kent Wildlife Trust and the Wildwood Trust, who have teamed up to find a place where they can have the best chance of survival on the cliff tops at Dover. Now, choughs are unlike other corvids in that they have very specific habits. They like to nest on cliffs, and they like to forage in insect rich grassland. So, this last year has seen the chough reintroduction programme. Finally, after years of planning, reach the point where the birds could start to be let out of aviaries and into the wild. It's a phase programme to give the birds the best chance of establishing a viable colony. And I was lucky enough to meet up with Liz Corry, who is the Chough Release Supervisor at a discrete location near Dover Castle, to find out more.

Rob Smith: I tell you what, this isn't a bad place to work, is it? - Stood up on the hills here overlooking the castle. Glorious sunshine. It's not bad.

Liz Corry: It's not bad. I mean, right now we are blessed. It is December and the weather might be a little bit cold, but the sun is out and there is no wind, and that is extremely unusual for Dover. There is no wind. Normally, it's blowing a gale and it's not as nice.

Rob Smith: So, we're actually walking around to the secret location, the release site, where the choughs have been first brought to. It's quite a special spot, this, in lots of ways, isn't it, because of the different landowners you've got around here?

Liz Corry: Yes. And that's what makes it quite an exciting and challenging project in some respects, is that there are – I mean, the landscape looks quite similar, but it is divided up into different owners. We have Kent Wildlife Trust, National Trust, private owners, the council, and, yeah, is trying to work with these people and different partners and seeing how we can best improve the habitat for this species.

Rob Smith: And we're walking through a field with some sheep. So, this is farmed land here. It's actively – well, that's a big part of the project, isn't it, how you interact with the landowners?

Liz Corry: Yeah, and it's one of the reasons why we chose this as a release site for the success of this project. For this species to be released, they need to have the immediate habitat to be a good condition for them to be released. We don't expect the whole of Dover to be ready in time for doing this sort of project. The idea is that the chough is a flagship that drives forward further habitat restoration. So having the grazed land here is great because it should mean that we have the soil invertebrates for the birds to feed off. But also, the sheep have a second benefit is that the birds actually use the wool for nesting, so they line their nest and protect their eggs with sheep's wool.

Rob Smith: All right, let's go and have a look, because the choughs are actually in the release cage at the moment, aren't they?

Liz Corry: Yes. So, this is actually quite unusual. The birds have had full access out and they can come and go as they please since summer. But with the way that we're managing this project, we are monitoring the birds every day. We're radio tracking them, we're supplementary feeding them and we're keeping an eye on their health. And we had a bird come back last evening and he was limping, so we kept them in overnight because they were – they were there for roosting anyway. They're sleeping and first light we had a look at him and he sustained a bit of an injury to his foot. So, at the moment, all the birds are currently locked in the aviary whilst we're just treating him.

Rob Smith: So where actually are we now, then?

Liz Corry: So, we're inside the release aviary and this particular section is sort of a multifunctional space of being the keep porch, the equipment storage, the kitchen prep area, everything one could need in a release aviary, really, and it then takes it into the next management areas of the aviaries, where we've currently got a bird locked away. And we're just going to catch him up to have a look at his foot.

Rob Smith: Okay, so this one who's injured his foot, what's he called?

Liz Corry: He's called Aristotle. He is the male of the five chicks that we reared this year. He was given that name because he's quite a talkative bird of all of them. He was the first one to start vocalising and didn't stop.

Rob Smith: Right, okay. And he's hurt his toe. Is that talon claw, what's the word?

Liz Corry: Yeah. So, it looks like he's damaged the claw, which is fairly common injury on these birds. I mean, they're amazing. If you do get to see them when they're out, particularly on Dover Castle, you'll see them sort of like, cling to the side of the walls. In fact, I had one of the security guards at the castle ask me if they're like spiders. He said, they're just like that, like spiders climbing at the wall. And that's because they're just trying to get into every nook and cranny, exploring to get insects of any kind. So, it may be he's just done some sort of injury to himself, climbing that way. Or he's had some sort of interaction commotion with another species out there, but we don't know. All we know is that he's got this injured digit that we need to deal with because it might get infected.

Rob Smith: Right, I'll let you go and deal with Aristotle's dodgy toe, then.

Liz Corry: Thank you.

Rob Smith: Do they mind being handled?

Liz Corry: Yes. So, this is another reason why it's been very useful to use. We wanted to use these hand reared birds for the first release because they're a bit more accepting of being handled like this and it just means they're a little less stressed because they recognise us.

You know, no one likes to be netted and handled, but they can tolerate it a little bit more and it just makes life a little bit easier for both parties involved.

Rob Smith: He's been quite patient. He's sort of looking up at you with a kind of, what are you doing sort of expression on his face. Right, so you've had a little look at Aristotle's toe. How's he doing?

Liz Corry: It looks okay. It's scabbed over, so he's had some barrier ointment put on it. That's like an antibacterial thing. We just have to keep an eye on it, really, in case that wound opens up and there may be an infection. But at the moment, he's okay. He's now in with his siblings, so he should be a little bit more calmer, but he does look a little bit unhappy about the situation. But hopefully they'll cheer up in a second because we're about to give them their supplemental food.

Rob Smith: Yes, because this is the thing, isn't it, that it's a staged released programme. You haven't just said, right choughs, off you go. See how you get on with it. You're keeping a very close eye on them and monitoring what they're doing and reintroducing them into the wild step by step.

Liz Corry: Yeah, exactly. And in terms of the supplemental food, we touched on the habitat earlier. There is some good habitat out here, but there's not enough to sustain the population at present. So, for these initial few years of doing the releases and releasing these new birds, we're providing them that extra food just in case they need it. In a case like today, they're obviously confined to the aviary for this catch up, so we're going to give them food.

They've not been out exploring. On a normal day, they will be out going around Dover getting what food they can. But of course, it's wintertime, so there aren't that many invertebrates in the ground. With winter, you have the challenge of frost, meaning that some ground they can't actually access, or as seems to be more and more typical with English winters, is the water. So, the ground is actually quite waterlogged at the moment and so there won't be those insects around. So, this provides them with that extra few calories they need to get through the day.

Rob Smith: Okay, so you're literally about to – you’re washing up the glamour, the glamorous side of nature conservation. You're washing out their feed bowls.

Liz Corry: Yeah. It's the bit that you don't normally see, really, especially on the glossy magazines. So, we are actually fortunate that the farmer here has put a tap in, so we have running water. But again, wintertime, it's running freezing water. Mary had the ingenious idea of bringing up a flask of hot water because sometimes the tap does freeze. But yes, I'm now out in, what is it, two degrees Celsius, having to do the washing up in a bucket in the field.

Rob Smith: Alright, crack on. So, what do you actually feed the choughs as their supplemental food?

Liz Corry: So, it's loosely based on the captive diet. They get live mealworms, which are pretty much their favourite. I guess in a way, though, it's equivalent to handing out chocolates for us, because, yes, they're tasty and everyone loves them, but they're not great in terms of nutrients. So, we also add to that they've got a mixture of hard-boiled egg, breadcrumbs and then a diet that's like a commercial diet that's made up and it's called an insectivorous mix. So, it's a bit like a dry fruit mix, I guess, if you're making a cake. The difference being it's got dried shrimp in it.

Rob Smith: Right, okay. And so, would these be the kind of things that you could buy in a pet shop, or do you have to get them sort of specially made up, different in their diet like that?

Liz Corry: Yeah. These days, because a lot of people do supplementary feed birds in the garden. A lot of these diets are now being made and commercially available on sort of those big brand marketplaces, net shops. But, yeah, we buy ours in –the particular one we're looking for that we've got is quite high in protein. That's quite important for this species, and so it does come up at a higher cost.

Rob Smith: Okay. Because lots of people obviously want to feed birds in their garden and put out supplementary food for them over the winter.

And sometimes people end up putting out maybe stuff that's not so good for birds. So, what's your basic advice for people who want to be helping whatever birds that are in their garden?

Liz Corry: I think it's giving birds a mixture because each species is slightly different. You know, we're talking about choughs here that are insectivorous species, so they'll be wanting those, like I said, the mealworms or anything that's got sort of dried insects in it. You'll also get your finch eating. Finch eating, sorry. You'll also get your seed eating birds and fat balls are quite a good one at wintertime. Not in summer, but definitely in winter. And you'll notice, me personally at my house, I get a mixture of the different various species of tits. You've got the finches, and then I've also got the jackdaws and the rooks coming, which I personally enjoy seeing them coming to feed, because I know they need that food.

Rob Smith: Right. So, Mary, we're going to go actually into the Avery. What are we doing?

Mary Brooks: We're just going to put the food out for the birds that we have in here.

Rob Smith: Mary Brooks is the other key figure in this project. She's the Chough Release Technician who has responsibility for the day-to-day care of the birds. So, you've put the food in the trays for them. What have they actually gotten?

Mary Brooks: They've got a diet that we make for them at Wildwood, which is a mixture of egg, breadcrumbs and, like a commercially available insect diet.

Rob Smith: And the actual trays you're putting in, they're sort of like shallow plastic kind of Tupperware trays, but you've got a whole bunch of holes cut in the lids, so that – what's that for?

Mary Brooks: Range of functions. It keeps rodents out. It tries to make sure that the choughs are the only ones that can access them, as opposed to jackdaws and magpies and other things that might take advantage.

Rob Smith: Right. Okay, so the holes – because the chough have got a very long beak, haven't they? So, they can peck through the holes to actually get to the mealworms and the egg and all the goodies in there?

Mary Brooks: Exactly, yes.

Rob Smith: And then the other species can't?

Mary Brooks: Exactly, yes. And the lids also serve to reduce the mess a bit and keep a little bit of the rain out.

Rob Smith: Are they messy feeders, then, are they?

Mary Brooks: They're very messy feeders, yes.

Rob Smith: From a personal perspective, do you kind of form a bit of a bond with the birds because you're with them pretty much every day, aren't you?

Mary Brooks: Absolutely. They've got huge personalities. You know, we know them as individuals. And, yeah, they certainly know us. They behave differently when it's us and when there's other people here.

Rob Smith: Am I putting them off?

Mary Brooks: A little bit, but I think they're hungry enough that they will still come to eat.

Rob Smith: So, the whistle?

Mary Brooks: Yes.

Rob Smith: That lets them know it's feeding time?

Mary Brooks: Exactly, yes. When they're out and about, it’s more audible for them from further away, so that they know. They know to come.

Rob Smith: So, from up here, I mean, they can fly – well, they can go wherever they like. Once they're out, they're out, aren't they? They can go miles if they wanted to, but they still come back?

Mary Brooks: They will come back, yes; yeah. They come back. If not for the morning feeds, they always come back for the afternoon feeds. They're quite reliable with that.

Rob Smith: And then, all too soon, my time with the choughs was up. After they'd been given the option to feed, the aviary doors were opened and within seconds, the birds were away, free in the sky over the white cliffs and making a beeline straight for the ancient walls of Dover Castle. And the hope is that over time, this will form the basis of a permanent wild population of red-billed chough in Kent. They'll eventually be a common site, nesting in the cliffs and become a normal, accepted part of wild birds that you find here once again.

Liz Corry: Yeah, exactly. So, we've got another maybe four or so years of doing these releases, and it is horrible to say, but it's pretty much a numbers game at the start. We're expecting to release 30 to 50 birds, knowing that we’ll lose some of those, whether it be naturally to peregrines or for some other reason. And so that definitely means we're going to have to release aviary here for those years. But ultimately, we're going to sort of start phasing back the supplemental feeding; the actual use of this aviary, and they will start to use the nest. They’re already using the castle. It wouldn't surprise me that by next year, they will look to the castle as potentially a roost site and then maybe a nesting site, and likewise with the cliffs. At the moment, they are teenagers. And so, at some point next year, as the breeding season starts, the hormones will kick in and so the priorities for nesting will also kick in.

Rob Smith: Is this project trying to get the land in good condition for the chough? Is that going to have knock on effects on other species and other – you know, the whole environment in general?

Liz Corry: Yeah, definitely. That's what we're hoping for. Like, we've already mentioned the soil biodiversity. If that's healthy, then you have other insectivorous species, that means it's healthy. And then, of course, predator-prey relationships, if you've got enough of those around, then the predator species will also benefit.

So, the peregrines for us are one of those love hate relationships. Obviously, when we're doing the releases, we have seen young peregrines practise hunting with the choughs, and it's a very scary time for one and all, but it is only natural, and so, you know, we do want to be seeing those interactions in the future. And if we do happen to lose a couple of choughs to the peregrines, well, that means the peregrine has got food. I'm sorry to say, it's quite harsh.

Rob Smith: Yeah, it’s a tough one, isn't it? Red in tooth and claw. So, the project's going well. I just want to return to the farmer side of things for a moment. The farmer has to be fully onside with all of this, because otherwise it can't happen at all.

Liz Corry: Yes. Him and the family have been very good. Not only we're on his land, so we're taking up some of his space. It is working with us. So far, we haven't had any sort of major conflicting issues because the choughs have kept to themselves and not particularly, I hate to say, it's not like we were releasing bison. They're not going to be that disruptive with the sheep. And in fact, we've actually started to find ways of helping each other. So, one thing in particular has been the water troughs. So, we have water troughs on site for the livestock. Birds are obviously known to use them, and in the wild, there are fatalities because birds will drown in them if they're not set up properly.

This is something that we have seen last year in the wild with juvenile choughs that have sort of come out and they don't really know where to go and they've fallen in and drowned. We obviously didn't want that to happen at the release site. Immediately the birds are released and they end up drowning. So, we've been working with a local blacksmith and with the farmer and looking at ways that we can adapt these water troughs so that the livestock can still feed and drink from them, but the birds are also safe at the same time. And so that's been really interesting, starting that process off. Again, there's no simple solution. There's lots of different water troughs, there's lots of different livestock, but it's just been showing how beneficial projects like this are, because we're all coming together.

Rob Smith: And in terms of the drugs and the pesticides, the avermectin you were talking about, have they been open to making those changes? What kind of conversations have you had around that?

Liz Corry: Well, that side is dealt, really, with – Kent Wildlife Trust have been heavily involved in that, so I haven't really had many conversations. But yes, they are very much open to be able to – you know, at the end of the day, it's about improving their livestock welfare as well. So, yes, it's being open to it. It's just trying to figure out the best for that particular site and what the best methodology is going to be.

Rob Smith: Right, okay. But there are actually some sort of unexpected benefits of them not using the chemicals in quite the same way?

Liz Corry: Yeah. There's a group called; I think it's the farmers for dung beetles. And there's an Irish farmer who's actually shown that by not quite being organic but really managing for dung beetles more, he's actually saved money. And that, I think, is the bit that people don't realise. They always think that if you have to go organic, it's going to cost a fortune. If we can't use chemicals that are cheap and easy to get, it is a slow process. It's not going to happen overnight. But yeah –

Rob Smith: And that’s because if you have more dung beetles, you have less flies and less flystrike as a result?

Liz Corry: Yeah, this is the thing; if you've got the dung beetles around, they're breaking up that dung and they're taking it away. But it also means that they're outcompeting things like the flies that are causing the issues with livestock that farmers are also having to treat for. And I think they've also shown that the actual –that this comes with dairy cows. They've actually shown that yield has gone up.

Rob Smith: So, there's positives to it as well. So, Liz, for you personally, because this project –I mean, it took a long time to get it up and running in the way that it needed to. How are you feeling about it all now? Is it doing what you wanted it to?

Liz Corry: It is. I mean, I can't wish for anything better at this stage, really. We haven't suffered majorly with losses. We've got the birds going out and about.

We're having lots of positive engagement with the public; you know lots of people. We've got murals in Canterbury; we've had workshops in Dover and people taking interest. The birders that are coming down, they've also been fairly positive about it because I realised that for them, this isn't technically a wild species. You know, it's not the same as maybe one flying over from France and arriving in Dover, but they have been quite positive and they've been keeping an eye out for the birds, for them. And yeah, it is still early days, but so far, touch wood, everything is going to plan.

Rob Smith: And they are just magnificent creatures to look at. Aren't they just beautiful?

Liz Corry: They are. I will confess that when – I've been working on this project for a few years, actually coming over, advising Wildwood, and now I work for Wildwood on this. And so I've been to Dover Castle when we've had our planning meetings initially about feasibility of doing this. So, when I was over at the castle and I actually saw the choughs there flying around, playing around in the buildings, I will say it just brought tears to my eye because it was just – this is exactly what we wanted. The next step, though, I need to move them to the cliffs. I'd like to see them on the cliffs as well, but you know, it'll take time, but they'll get there.

Rob Smith: Great stuff. Liz, thanks ever so much.

Liz Corry: Thank you.

Rob Smith: Many thanks to Liz Corry, the Chough Release Supervisor with Wildwood. And it has been a remarkable partnership to bring the project to this point between Wildwood and Kent Wildlife Trust Paradise Park in Cornwall, where the choughs were originally bred. The farmer, the National Trust, even the MODs played a role. If you want to find out more, then take a look at the Kent Wildlife Trust website.